Not Nirvana, Not Really...

[savageseraph]

Color me a skeptic, but I really never thought Dreamwidth was going to be the new Nirvana. I've been around too long and seen too many incarnations of the search for the Promised Land of Blogdom to drink the dreamy Kool-Aid. My suspicions were somewhat confirmed today in the update post that was sent to Dreamwidth users. In fact, it was an impressive rhetorical exercise in adjusting expectations downward. They made it clear that on April 30th, Dreamwidth moves from closed beta to "open beta."

We've made a number of sweeping changes, both to introduce new functionality and to clean up some of the already-existing functionality, and while we've gone to tremendous effort to make sure things work, there are still some sawdust puddles in the corners and all the trim isn't painted yet [....] During our open beta phase, we'll be concentrating on doing the last bits of cleanup, adding the last pieces of functionality that we couldn't get to before open beta begun, adding more pretty, extending our documentation, and otherwise doing the last things we consider necessary for us to consider all the basic bits of the site "finished".

Okay, I don't have a problem with managing and setting expectations, but I wonder what sorts of trainwrecks they see coming down the track. I've spent years at odds with IT in our company for launching technology before it should have been, and this feels like one of IT's launch first, worry about fixing all the shit that breaks down second.

Now, fandom, you've been more than a little squeeful of the new shiny of the week, even more than you were with InsaneJournal, and believe me, that was annoying as fuck back in the day. However, did you guys check out this little nugget in the email that came out today:

It's also worth repeating, I think, that Dreamwidth is not a fandom project. While we are very welcoming of fandom, we are not fandom-exclusive or even fandom-focused. We hope to build a broad, diverse, creative community from all walks of life and all groups of interests.

Sure, right now Dreamwidth doesn't accept advertising and they say they never will. I'll take them at their word there. However, what happens when that "broad, diverse community" starts stumbling into Harry/Draco fic and porny manips of J2? What happens when people, people who could be paying for their accounts, start to complain about the pervy stuff being posted in the fannish communities and journals? While we beat the drums and tell people to "vote with their wallets," let's not forget that other people, people who don't find fannish texts and art acceptable, will do that too. On a site that is totally relying on user payments to fund its existence, those voices can and will have the same power as advertisers.

Phew. Okay. Let me pack away skeptical!Barb for a moment and let annoyed!Barb out of the box. Some of the features that Dreamwidth has really rub me the wrong way.

Yes, Dreamwidth lets you crosspost to other platforms. Hooray! It also lets you choose to disallow comments on the non-Dreamwidth journals. Okay, this frosts my ass, and I'd suspect I'm not alone. If you want to move to Dreamwidth, that's your right. If you want to crosspost here so that we don't lose touch, I'm thrilled. However, by shutting down comments here, you're forcing me to get a Dreamwidth account or OpenID access so I can keep interacting with you (on a level that's more than just reading your posts), and that's not cool.

But, Barb, you have a Dreamwidth account. What's the big deal? The big deal is that by disabling comments in LJ, you're coercing me into using a service that I don't plan to interact with/on very much. The big deal is that by doing this, you're, in essence, saying, "I'd like you to still be part of my audience, but if you want to be part of my circle and want me to read your posts, you need to come over to Dreamy Side with me." It feels a little like I can respect your decision to move, but you don't respect my decision to stay.

Also, the whole divide between granting access (in LJ terms "friending") to a DW journal and subscribing to one (having it pop up on your reading list but not allowing the other journal rights to your flocked posts) is annoying. Moreover, it's something we have here already. All you need to do is make a filter to flock to only those people you really trust. I'd wager most of us have one of more flock groups here already.

Let's be honest, is it really nicer and kinder to tell someone flat out, "Listen, I really don't care about or trust you enough to share my personal life with you," to their face or to make a flock group? It goes beyond just that. Since the access/subscribe lists show up on your profile, you are, in essence, shouting this into the room full of users.

Bah. It's Monday. Rainy and cold. I didn't sleep well last night, and I have a horrible headache. I acknowledge these things may make me more grouchy than normal. I'm really heartened by the number of you who have been saying that you aren't planning a move, even to crosspost, and I'm sad that I might lose touch with some of the rest of you, though I hope that won't happen.

ETA: Just to clarify, none of the grumbling is directed at any one person or persons on my flist. Heck, it's not even entirely addressed to my flist, since I see it happening on friends flists too.

Comments

[esmeraldus-neo.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about most of that.

I was really interested in the ability to have an internal crossposting mechanism, but the access/subscription thing...yeah. Ouch. I can see why people say "It's more transparent and honest!" but I think it's one of those Geek Social Fallacy corollaries. I'm pretty sure that everyone on my LJ list doesn't expect to be on equally intimate terms with me. at least, I hope not. I know people without personal boundaries, but I'm not one of them.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

The whole LJ "friends" thing causes wank--and I am betting the "access/subscribe" thing also causes wank--because, well, fandom is wank!

There is wank about comments (too many, not enough, not the right kind); there is wank about no comments.

I am now heavily into the zen of wank--i.e. that no matter what feature, what service, whatever, there will be wank in fandom.

I had too many meetings today; I think my brain has been affected.

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. Yeah. I'm of your thinking about the levels of intimacy thing. I don't like that the way things are set up over there shoves it in your face.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Like ithiliana, I don't see how it's going to cause any more wank than the old system did. The thing I like about it (and honestly, if DW goes under, I hope LJ steals it) is that some journals you're not wanting or expecting to friend you, and it's annoying to have to 'friend' those people just to read their journals-- jacksonpublick comes to mind. He basically uses his LJ as a billboard, and why do I have to friend him to read his (admittedly AWESOME) billboard?

Here from metafandom.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

The grass is always greener?

The history of fandom on the internet has been trying out new stuff, always with lots of debate.

I don't know that DW will prove to be that different than LJ but right now--no ads on basic accounts, I like, for my students as part of my new media assignments.

The shiny new utopia promises--eh, that's also the internet.

And tech people!

Although some of what I was reading by programmers and IT people on the work they do every day (in relation to amazonfail's glitch) makes me wonder just what weird spellcasting they have done to make people think that this weirdass technology ever works (beause, often it doesn't--and they don't always know why--I remember having the IT guy in charge of Breeze and the IT guy in charge of Power Point talking about how nobody knows why things sometimes go wrong when the two programs "intersect"--and suggesting the only way to solve the problem was to wipe my fraking hard drive).

I think we'll see a lot of the same things that have happened on LJ happen on DW over the next few years.....but then I'm old and grumpy.

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Well, they've also said that they are going to always add new people through invites only so they can control the size of the userbase. So getting invites for a whole class could be tough.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

p.s. I agree--I don't like the coercive bit, the "i'll crosspost but you must comment over on DW" very much. Whatever crossposting I do, won't involve that sort of thing.

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Hell, if I crosspost, I doubt I'll use DW to do it. I'll cut and paste over, because I also object to advertising for them whenever I post through them.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

I'm doing it because I want my comments all in one place, to be a single conversation. It's the same reason that all my fanfiction is posted to the AO3 unless the challenge requires I post in a community.

Re: the crossposter ... If you don't lock the comments to DW, the crossposter doesn't mention DW when you crosspost.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I was thinking I'd do the same thing but there is one exception, which is fics too long to post on LJ. It would be delightful not to have to break those bitches up too much. (I of course have written, IIRC, exactly one fic that meets these parameters. But still! If I do...!)

[makamu]

I don't disagree with most of what you said here, but as for the non-fandom part, they have said that from the beginning and if users cannot think the issue through or decide for themselves what the potential consequences of their actions will be, then I see that as the user's fault, not the service's.

I like the cross-posting option (with enabled comments, naturally) which is why I created an account yesterday :). It's mostly back-up though

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Yeah. People tend to hear what they want to hear. Most of what I'm hearing is that this is the new fannish shiny, not just another blogging platform option.

[cocoajava.livejournal.com]

You echo all my thoughts so well it's scary.

Well said on the disabling comments on the crossposts. But then again, if someone disables comments in lj, there's no use telling them to not do that - they most likely won't be coming over to lj to READ any comments made.

It's all very frustrating to me. I'm trying like hell to keep my internet footprint small and controllable. But my friends are like kittens and keep scampering everywhere. I like kittens so I try to keep up with them, but I've had to yell 'enoughs enough' a few times and pulled the plug at MySpace and FaceBook. I lost the friendships but I'm tired of being roped into committing to systems I don't want to be in.

Sigh. Rant/ramble in your journal. :)

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

You can rant all you'd like. That's really what this whole post is. I needed to grumble a bit.

[rilee16.livejournal.com]

...? You could just contact them about posts through email, and if you want to be able to go and see your comments somewhere there are these nifty little functions called CC and BCC, which will ensure you get a copy of whatever you send them in your email inbox. ::old dinosaur wanders off::

[kittylass.livejournal.com]

I'm out of my depth here, but talk of new shiny things always makes me cling to what (and who) I have now. Most of what I've seen on my flist about Dreamwidth though, is people who say things along the lines of what you're saying. So that settles me a little *g*
Good points as well! I'm always (unreasonably) skeptical about new things, but it's good to read that there are some reasonable reasons to stop and think about it a minute.

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Yes, I feel the same. I feel more settled the more settled my flist seems to be.

[caras-galadhon.livejournal.com]

You know what I seem to have just found out? If a person is posting to DW and turning off comments at LJ and directing you to respond over there, and that post is locked, unless that person has given your OpenID access over there (in which case, you must have created, confirmed and subscribed to that journal on DW using OpenID), you can't see the post to comment on it. *throws up hands* WELL.

My motivation to jump through hoops only goes so far before I give up, and today, it went as far as clicking through, being stymied twice by the login screen, going directly to the journal looking for the post without logging in, then logging in with my OpenID, clicking through via LJ again and getting a 404 Forbidden. Yeeeah.

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Wow. That's rather exhausting in terms of commenting, isn't it? I guess the choice to turn off comments in LJ is whether posters want to make things easier for their commenters or not.

[giandujakiss.livejournal.com]

Hi there. Here from metafandom. I just wanted to drop a comment on the disabling comments thing, because I totally understand why that seems offensive to people, and a pain in the ass to people who don't have Dreamwidth accounts in some way, but the thing is, for the poster, it's a really difficult issue. Because commenters interact with each other, not just the poster - that's what makes for a good post and exciting comment threads. And so if you don't direct comments to a single thread, you lose that kind of dynamism. So if someone does want to post to Dreamwidth and not lose touch with current friends, channeling comments to Dreamwidth may be the best of bad options.

Also, for me - and I know at least two other people in similar situations - my office has a very tight internet block that won't let me on LJ, or even personal email. But they haven't discovered Dreamwidth yet. Maybe they will eventually, but for now, the only way I can post to LJ during the work day is by cross posting from Dreamwidth, and I can only answer comments that come to the Dreamwdith post (unless I use a mobile thing, which is a pain.)

So, there are real, practical reasons to direct comments to Dreamwidth that aren't just about forcing friends to a new platform.

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Those are good reasons for consolidating posts. I can't argue with the workplace blocking thing. I'm still able to get on LJ at the office, but that might not always be the case.

In terms of discussions, the exchanges in comments are exciting and part the joy of posting and interacting in this sort of space. When I've crossposted fics, I've been able to have threads running in my personal LJ and a community one, so I think those sorts of exchanges could still occur, as long as there were still groups of people reading and commenting in both comment areas.

Heck, sometimes, I end up commenting in two different places on the same fic or something else that was crossposted, because I'll go for the one I stumble across first. ^_^

[druidspell.livejournal.com]

You got linked on metafandom, which is where I came from.

I tentatively agree with your comments here, but at the same time, I do still have a decent amount of optimism that Dreamwidth provides a better alternative than SUP/LJ. I'm a little wary of putting my trust back into LJ after some of the stuff they've pulled in the last two years.
But, as far as fandom goes--it's not made to exclusively cater to fandom, no, but synecdochic is one half of the owning pair, and she's very active in fandom and porn writing. This makes me think that fandom will never be unwelcome at DW.

[rilee16.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I highly doubt she'll going to allow stuff to be done in reaction to the next idiot's "Won't someone think of the children!111" reaction to fannish content that threatens her own and her community's own usage of the site. Especially as most of us (that bother actually doing a bit of research about the site, that is) know who she is, and could flood her with complaints if she were to ever do something purposefully or unthinkingly negative to fandom by way of DW policy.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I don't plan to lock comments in my LJ when I cross-post, though I do see the value in consolidating comments in one place. And with fic, I'm just leaving it all on LJ and directing DW readers to my LJ.

And I get that it's frustrating to jump through hoops to comment in DW. But it's kind of like a non-LJ user trying to comment in your LJ, or when I have to log into my IJ (which I never use) so I can comment in my friend's IJ. I subscribe to my friend's RSS feed so I'll see when she's updated her IJ, then I go over to where she is to comment. (I usually end up posting anonymously in IJ, since I can't be bothered to log in.) Don't get me wrong, it's annoying to go to IJ and I really wish she was still on LJ instead, but I don't feel pressured to visit IJ just because I've subscribed to her RSS feed. You know?

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

I hear you about comment consolidation. I like that, but I'll sacrifice it to give others easier (and more) ways to keep in touch with me. And yeah, I pretty much lost touch with the folks who moved to IJ. I don't have time to keep up with my LJ flists, let alone log on somewhere else to comment.

[roundaboutit.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of what you've just said. I too am very interested in seeing how DW will handle the barrage of fandom based content that's about to reach a sudden increase. As we've learned with LJ, it's not what they say now, but what they'll say in the future that's the most important.

I don't really know. I think they've got the knowledge to handle the situation better than LJ can and did. But, we'll see, right?

Do you mind if I add you on LJ and on DW?

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

I'm also interested to see what happens. We had an interesting simulated stress exercise at a training session here at work yesterday to show that being pressured generally tends to facilitate different behaviors than we normally present, so the true tests will come when the heat is on.

I don't mind at all if you friend me, and welcome.

[triestine.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why people (not you; in general) take the access/subscription split personally. Why should "I am interested in reading your journal" automatically include "so come into my house"?

Subscribing without granting access is akin to reading said journal via RSS, and the only reason I gather people aren't wanking over that is that it's a "sneaky" tactic, although in reality it's just a regular approach of keeping up with blogs.

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

I don't take it personally at all. It's a given parameter of the space. I knew about it before I opened my DW account. It wasn't like it took my by surprise.

The main difference I see between my flist and things I read on it via RSS feeds is that I do not expect to interact with blogs I read on RSS feeds. I might make the occasional comment, but I feed all my RSS reader through my Feeds app on my iPhone. Only rarely do I comment on those blogs. However, if I have someone on my LJ or DW flists, I expect to interact with them with actively.

Of course, this speaks to my general patterns of usage. I rarely flock anything and even more rarely flock to a filter.

[dirty-diana.livejournal.com]

Let's be honest, is it really nicer and kinder to tell someone flat out, "Listen, I really don't care about or trust you enough to share my personal life with you," to their face or to make a flock group?

Lying doesn't seem more righteous to me. Someone on your flist should be able to expect all the benefits that that normally entails. And if I don't have said benefits? Then I'd rather know about it.

I hate filters, personally. I think they're way ruder. I am very excited about the access/filter thing.

[via metafandom]

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, we live in a world where your opinion doesn't invalidate mine any more than mine invalidates yours.

However, I do have to disagree that everyone on my flist should expect to have access to all my posts. I'm someone who rarely flocks and even more rarely filters, but I do filter flock on occasion to writing partners, people I know in RL, etc. We do this everyday in RL with people. We don't divulge the same information in the same level of detail to everyone we know.

Here from metafandom

[turlough]

In fact, it was an impressive rhetorical exercise in adjusting expectations downward. They made it clear that on April 30th, Dreamwidth moves from closed beta to "open beta."

I don't really understand where you get the "adjusting expectations" from. As you can see for example here in a progress report from January 12 and the first entry in dw_news on February 16 the plan was always to begin with a closed beta and then move to open beta for a few months before the full launch.

Re: Here from metafandom

[savageseraph.livejournal.com]

I haven't been following the evolution of DW. I've heard the mentions on my flist, but I've not been searching it out. I'm not talking about the expectations of DW but of many prospective users who seem to be idealizing DW as a blogtopia.